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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 160 160 there should be

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fireworks for that number I think or

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something or maybe you can have a quiet

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celebration yourselves 164 the 12th of

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November 2011 Richard Saunders here with

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you back in Sydney Australia back from

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my gallivanting in the United States

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back from Louisiana New Orleans back

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from death valley oh boy but I want to

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go back to Death Valley that was

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exciting and some people have asked me

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why I didn't do a recording a segment

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with Brian Dunning from the racetrack

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player where the famous moving rocks are

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even though we did shoot a quick video

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there which is available at skeptics own

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podcast on YouTube well the honest

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answer is we were both freezing cold so

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cold in fact we could hardly use our

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fingers to operate cameras and things

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and partly because the wind the cold

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wind was blowing so strongly that I

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think any recording would have been just

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blown out with the wind we stayed as

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long as we couldn't we looked at as many

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of these famous moving rocks as we could

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but honestly by the time we got back to

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the Jeep we were starting to get very

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numb with the cold but a great adventure

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anyway but on this episode of the

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skeptic zone we hear from Carolina

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humanists from Spain from Spanish

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skeptical sort of organizations she was

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in Sydney recently while I was overseas

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oh well and she gave a speak to Sydney

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skeptics in the pub likely that was

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recorded and our friend and reporter

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Maynard was on the spot to interview

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Carol

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after her talk that's coming up at the

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top of the show after then maynards back

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with his spooky action he's going to

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interview he has given the british

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reporter who's just made an interesting

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series called the witch doctor will see

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you now which is currently showing here

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in australia on the national geographic

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channel check your local listings for

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that show the witch doctor will see you

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now now yeah I I can see where Pierce is

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coming from with this witch doctor type

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program he's goes out and looks at the

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traditional medicine around the world

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some of these conclusions and don't

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quite agree with there you go have a

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listen see what you think and if you're

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in Australia check out his show on the

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national geographic channel and to wrap

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up the show we go back to New Orleans

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back to the psych on convention the

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committee for skeptical inquiry

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convention i was at a few weeks ago

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where I speak to an old friend of mine

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dr. Harriet hall dr. Harriet hall

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otherwise known as the skip doc she's a

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retired Air Force colonel in fact and

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very active in the skeptical community

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putting her scientific and medical

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knowledge to good use Harriet hall

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coming up at the end of the show but

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before we before we get into the show

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couple of quick reminders the Australian

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skeptics annual convention is on the

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19th of Van this month november in

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sydney well it's sold out good stuff

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it's all sold out but there are still

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tickets still tickets for the skeptics

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convention dinner that night the 19th

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november at darling harbour here in

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sydney with special guest Lawrence lung

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book now at ww skeptics kome you come

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along you don't have to come to the

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convention in fact you can't anymore but

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come along and join us for the dinner

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should be good fun now this Monday the

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14th of November I'm going to be

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speaking in Canberra in the nation's

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capital

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I'll be a guest of the Canberra skeptics

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and i'll be talking about power balance

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and demonstrating tricks and all that

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sort of stuff it's a free talk it's

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Monday evening in Canberra and you can

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find out more details at wwc embrace

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skeptics org dot a you and I think

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that's kicking off around 6pm so if

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you're in Canberra come along and say

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hello on the fifteenth of this month dr.

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Richie dr. Richie who's currently in

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Florida oh boy having fun I hope she's

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going to be speaking at the Australian

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Museum I her talk her very interesting

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talk about people diagnosing their own

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illnesses with dr. Google and if you

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head to the Australian Museum on Google

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are you'll find out more about that talk

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so that's the 15th here in Sydney a

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little bit later in the show there's

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some information about events happening

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in Melbourne but you know what I'm

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pretty keen to listen to this show too

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so I'm going to hit the button the play

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button run downstairs run downstairs

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open the fridge look around and maybe

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get some apple juice mmm that's a new

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one apple juice this week run back

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upstairs and we can all listen to the

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hi everyone thank you for this

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opportunity and first of all I've never

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done a speech in English oh thank you in

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advance for your patient this kind of

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scary how to say well we wanted me to

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talk about this skepticism that is going

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on in Spain and because it probably is a

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bit different from what it's in here in

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some cases are we all have the same kind

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of issues and we're all fighting the

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same kind of things so I had some notes

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but I forgot them at home so I'm gonna

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try my best I wanted to start with the

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but part of the skeptics thanks miss

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pain because there they sound very bad

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so true and then probably and with a

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good part so you don't think that we're

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all crazy people there well tho tho i

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guess the most maybe the yeah the bad

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parts there are basically the problems

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we have the Catholic Church involved in

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politics and and all the things that we

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are still have from after suffering a

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very big Catholic oppression during the

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dictatorship and the other thing is of

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course problems with pseudoscience and

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hospitals and laws that don't protect us

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very well from things like magicians and

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every kind of scams that i'm sure you

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guys also have here like powerful raised

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bands and things like that I thing you

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do some you did something about that and

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and we're very proud of you from there

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so yeah part of the things that we're

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trying to fight most or me in my case is

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the religious thing we I think we have a

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problem with religion there in

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being involved in it every political

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thing they have they take all public

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money and and they have a lot of public

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schools and religion involved with

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children and that kind of stuff they

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don't pay taxes then all this stuff and

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we if this this year in fact we had the

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Pell visiting us which was so yeah it

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was a great event with the though I

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don't know who you call them here I

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think you you have here also those the

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Jews yes yeah exactly yeah so yeah that

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was there was one of the biggest things

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this year because a lot of money a lot

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of public money went for that and then

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we're now in a very very big crisis

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right now so and almost in the same

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month that the Pope took like 5 million

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euros for the visit the same amount of

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money was taken away from education just

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in Madrid just the same on same amount

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of money so welcome back to the old ages

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where education has no money goes to the

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church so we had a big protest there

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about that and and some of the stuff

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like in Madrid the president of the

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community of madrid oh lady that we

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really don't like very much open and

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homeopathy I'm help me a bath big

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Hospital and it is

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yeah it was sounds crazy we had our

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homeopathic suicide there at the door

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and I in the hospital yeah that's that

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was a very good thing we we did the wall

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will go with the good things after this

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and we also have a minister of the ill

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health minister it's a lady of a young

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lady that we're so Rhea's band powerful

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r is bound and she was out and public

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things talking about our laws and our

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social security were in the power

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balance wristband it was embarrassing

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and and she's had it publicly that oh it

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was a gift for someone and she wanted to

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wear it but we don't think it's

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acceptable that minister in social

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health care where's magic race bands or

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anything like that so yeah it's pretty

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there's a lot of work to do but the good

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part is the skeptic things is are

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growing very fast there there we have

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two big skeptics associations and a

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member of both and we're really

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organizing a lot of things and we have a

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very good communication with the

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scientific part of the society we're

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really a big group all together doing a

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lot of things together there's this

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particular blog there started like two

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years ago called amazings is and it

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started just like a small blog in less

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than a year we have thousands of members

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and now we have a magazine out and we're

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starting to make conferences and we saw

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all the tickets were sold out like in a

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week and so yeah it's it's getting

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better we have faith and it's getting

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better and about the religious thing we

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we did a very important thing well it

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was more the funny thing we have

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a couple problems with it but we build

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within them the atheist group that we

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have then in Spain we build a big teapot

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Russell's people like a big thing and we

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just went our industry like they do with

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their sayings and virgins and this we

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thought if we were going to be like 30

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people just carrying that big crazy

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thing just trying to show that we think

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that that's absurd and we end up being

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more than 5,000 so that was big there

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were in the news crazy people carrying a

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big magical tea pot in the street so

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yeah I think oh the still have a lot of

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a lot of things to do but we're getting

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there I think we get in there and it's

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growing basically it's growing I don't

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know if it's similar here in any way or

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you have difference I'm sure you have

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difference you don't have magic race

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balance anymore that's that's good for

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you oh but they they admitted that they

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were like yeah hold that yeah how the

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homo ground the magical hologram so yeah

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I and I just wanted to share with all of

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you how things go around Europe in

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general because we a lot of countries in

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Europe have this same problems with the

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Catholic Church and all this stuff there

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are any questions or the question was of

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the opinion of the public opinion of the

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cathodic church is changing and I think

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yes it's changing definitely there's a

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lot of people just although the scandals

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that they have and the crisis the

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economic crisis is making some people

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open their eyes a little bit more when

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you see the Pope going with

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of big cars and dressed in gold and

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through we're all losing our jobs

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there's it doesn't make sense and they

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keep saying that seventy percent of

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Spain are Catholics which is not true at

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all seventy percent of Spain are

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00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:46,260
baptized which doesn't like I am it

272
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:48,510
doesn't mean that we're a cath later in

273
00:14:55,009 --> 00:14:52,410
fact oh we think there's around forty

274
00:14:59,329 --> 00:14:55,019
percent of the population or atheist

275
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:59,339
because it's like only fifteen twenty

276
00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:00,959
percent of the population that really go

277
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:02,640
to church every Sunday the rest of the

278
00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:05,310
Catholics just go for weddings and

279
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:08,700
things like that and yeah if you go to a

280
00:15:14,930 --> 00:15:10,800
church in a Sunday morning you only see

281
00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:14,940
a couple old ladies release if I think

282
00:15:22,009 --> 00:15:19,190
he's going down so yeah hopefully yeah

283
00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:22,019
we're going we get in there the bad

284
00:15:26,630 --> 00:15:24,180
thing also is the Royal in the pulp

285
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:26,640
thing the pope visit there was a lot of

286
00:15:32,449 --> 00:15:30,050
kids a lot of students a lot of children

287
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:32,459
that was sad there was a lot of children

288
00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:38,880
used last well helping and wearing

289
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:42,470
t-shirts and singing help songs and then

290
00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:44,970
getting drunk at night that was a big

291
00:15:54,759 --> 00:15:47,790
thing to in Madrid so it was so make

292
00:15:59,809 --> 00:15:57,230
yeah we have we're having elections and

293
00:16:05,600 --> 00:15:59,819
gentlemen which has to me if we expect a

294
00:16:08,059 --> 00:16:05,610
change well no really in fact we expect

295
00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:08,069
a change in a bad way because his though

296
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:10,529
yeah that's no Spanish friend of mine

297
00:16:17,179 --> 00:16:15,240
they're saying yes because the political

298
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,189
party that is going to win the elections

299
00:16:29,119 --> 00:16:19,680
and we know that because of the crisis

300
00:16:31,970 --> 00:16:29,129
is could you say the right party the so

301
00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:31,980
they love their church and they give

302
00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:34,500
monitor church and they want us all to

303
00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:37,980
be Catholic and there's not it's not

304
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:39,569
going to be the change that we really

305
00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:43,350
need and it's for the crisis I guess

306
00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:45,839
because the government that we now have

307
00:16:53,389 --> 00:16:48,839
which is left-handed it's not doing

308
00:16:55,999 --> 00:16:53,399
things very well so probably the other

309
00:16:58,579 --> 00:16:56,009
would because we have only like two big

310
00:17:00,199 --> 00:16:58,589
party so the the conservative party is

311
00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:00,209
going to win the elections which is not

312
00:17:07,460 --> 00:17:04,980
helping very much so we have to wait

313
00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:07,470
probably a little bit more to keep

314
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:10,110
fighting no not really you mean like

315
00:17:14,569 --> 00:17:12,809
United States for example that is not a

316
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,579
good idea to go out and say that you're

317
00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:16,799
an atheist now there's not really a

318
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:19,500
problem I haven't had any problems Oh

319
00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:24,510
some old people maybe look at you like

320
00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:28,140
well my mom my mother is nae theists and

321
00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:32,520
she had this mmm one day she said oh

322
00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:34,140
you're going to church with us with a

323
00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:37,260
her workmates and she was nominally an

324
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:39,390
atheist and then lady said how can your

325
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:43,770
being a thizz you're a good person but

326
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:45,330
other than that no we'd really don't

327
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:47,690
have problems at all people really don't

328
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:50,550
don't believe that match we don't have

329
00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:51,870
problems like the united states that

330
00:17:56,050 --> 00:17:53,640
people believe in the bible and things

331
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:56,060
that we don't have problems like with

332
00:18:04,400 --> 00:17:59,120
creation is and things like that so i

333
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:04,410
haven't had any problems hopefully other

334
00:18:10,610 --> 00:18:06,900
other religious denominations how strong

335
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:10,620
we are they represented Catholic Church

336
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:15,570
real we see a scale we have religious

337
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:17,760
denominations like other than careful is

338
00:18:22,910 --> 00:18:21,240
it not really really are cathal is well

339
00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:22,920
we're stun will we have a lot of

340
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,740
immigration now we're but all the

341
00:18:31,940 --> 00:18:27,840
immigrants that come from South America

342
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:31,950
most of them we have Muslims coming from

343
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:34,410
Africa too but there's still a minority

344
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:39,930
and yeah probably just ten percent of

345
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:44,130
the believers in Spain are Muslims and

346
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,110
the rest is Catholicism we don't really

347
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:48,720
have anything else there they have it

348
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:52,160
all sure European a trip

349
00:18:58,780 --> 00:18:55,010
sangiema promoter has finally agreed to

350
00:19:00,970 --> 00:18:58,790
a very decent easily that's a nation

351
00:19:02,110 --> 00:19:00,980
which is backwards catholic country and

352
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:02,120
the whole of the mediterranean was

353
00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:05,450
finally actually legalized divorce which

354
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:08,620
country you say Walter oh really yeah

355
00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:14,960
now Wow was about time the last six

356
00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:18,830
months oh wow this divorce is divorced

357
00:19:25,630 --> 00:19:23,060
allowed in Spain yeah it is in fact we

358
00:19:28,570 --> 00:19:25,640
have gay marriage and we have abortion

359
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:28,580
law so we were doing fine until these

360
00:19:31,450 --> 00:19:30,320
elections will see what happens after

361
00:19:35,470 --> 00:19:31,460
this because some of the politicians

362
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:35,480
that were on the campaign now they're

363
00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:37,730
saying then they may change borscht in

364
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:42,700
laws and gay marriage we hope they don't

365
00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:44,930
probably they won't because they say

366
00:19:50,170 --> 00:19:46,780
things to win the elections and they

367
00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:50,180
they don't do things that they say they

368
00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:52,430
gonna do but you're they're threatened

369
00:19:59,470 --> 00:19:55,070
to change some of the things that we

370
00:20:06,970 --> 00:20:02,530
do you think your politicians and asking

371
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:06,980
lowest price computer science well our

372
00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:10,720
politicians where r is bands and open

373
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:13,640
homeopathy hospitals and and there are

374
00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:16,090
public hospitals forget about that yeah

375
00:20:23,770 --> 00:20:19,040
offering pseudoscience and like in

376
00:20:25,540 --> 00:20:23,780
cancer like we have Reiki you know in a

377
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:25,550
hospital in a public hospital it wasn't

378
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:28,450
with a big thing offering to the ballot

379
00:20:36,010 --> 00:20:31,610
is it it's really not a big things just

380
00:20:37,630 --> 00:20:36,020
small crucial things but so from time to

381
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:37,640
time you hear things like that and

382
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:42,080
that's where all we yeah reiki in a

383
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:44,930
hospital come on so is that publicly

384
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:47,090
funded the am having hospital and the

385
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:50,090
right in yes oh my god that's the thing

386
00:20:59,920 --> 00:20:53,930
it's there are public hospitals oh my

387
00:21:03,250 --> 00:20:59,930
god yeah yeah I used to go sign okay not

388
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:03,260
the truth they are you think as well 20

389
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:14,740
yeah well that's one of the suicides

390
00:21:20,519 --> 00:21:16,490
Reiki is the other one that's in

391
00:21:25,180 --> 00:21:23,169
well i have a friend i went to the

392
00:21:27,549 --> 00:21:25,190
doctor a few months ago and the doctor

393
00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:27,559
gave him a little stamp of the virgin

394
00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:31,190
and recommend her to pray and and it was

395
00:21:46,629 --> 00:21:44,379
probably something that had in that

396
00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:46,639
solution or something like that I don't

397
00:21:58,810 --> 00:21:52,220
know no matter what you know if I may if

398
00:22:03,039 --> 00:21:58,820
I may ask you quick support provides

399
00:22:12,820 --> 00:22:03,049
replaced is there a treatment spanish

400
00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:12,830
translation step afisma is that why you

401
00:22:17,619 --> 00:22:15,830
asking me though for the term some

402
00:22:19,779 --> 00:22:17,629
languages some phones have a word that's

403
00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:19,789
not directly translated in english there

404
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:22,940
no in this case where a step Takacs and

405
00:22:27,879 --> 00:22:25,250
we're all and no we're a lot of estefy

406
00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:27,889
fish more so pretty similar very similar

407
00:22:34,779 --> 00:22:32,590
um once you to ask you about the you I

408
00:22:37,029 --> 00:22:34,789
you're in organizations that are

409
00:22:39,970 --> 00:22:37,039
dedicated to atheism and also to

410
00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:39,980
skepticism and there is no at least in

411
00:22:44,259 --> 00:22:41,240
Australia there is a bit of a debate

412
00:22:45,549 --> 00:22:44,269
about whether all atheists should be

413
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:45,559
skeptics and all skeptics to the

414
00:22:48,669 --> 00:22:47,360
atheists and all those things and what

415
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:48,679
you know they overlap between the

416
00:22:53,049 --> 00:22:50,750
organization's how does that play out in

417
00:22:57,389 --> 00:22:53,059
Spain what we don't like to make things

418
00:23:02,860 --> 00:22:57,399
like where I'm part of a villa's

419
00:23:05,049 --> 00:23:02,870
organizations and skeptics too but more

420
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:05,059
than half of the people are member of

421
00:23:10,509 --> 00:23:08,809
both it's our requirement you don't need

422
00:23:13,869 --> 00:23:10,519
to you can be an atheist and also

423
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:13,879
believe in I know atheist to believe in

424
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:16,480
food science of some sort or go to

425
00:23:21,789 --> 00:23:18,769
fortune tellers and things like that and

426
00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:21,799
they're not many of them but yeah we

427
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:23,870
tried to separate things in the end

428
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:26,210
we're a big family where we can you can

429
00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:28,610
see the same faces everywhere but

430
00:23:34,110 --> 00:23:31,220
but yeah but it's not a requirement we

431
00:23:36,669 --> 00:23:34,120
tried to separate things because yeah

432
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:36,679
it's not the same thing exactly you're

433
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:39,370
not well I don't know if I know a really

434
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:42,170
skeptic person that is a believer I

435
00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:45,830
don't know no I don't think so there may

436
00:23:51,940 --> 00:23:50,390
be somebody I don't really know well

437
00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:51,950
there are believers that are they're not

438
00:23:59,169 --> 00:23:56,420
all active skeptics but they're skeptic

439
00:24:01,030 --> 00:23:59,179
and every issue in there every part of

440
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:01,040
their everyday live except their

441
00:24:06,039 --> 00:24:04,010
religion there's we all know this kind

442
00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:06,049
of people they're not very active

443
00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:10,190
skeptics but yeah they act as skeptics

444
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,200
in many ways except for their religion

445
00:24:17,169 --> 00:24:14,720
that's the only way to sometimes survive

446
00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:17,179
in this world and keep being a theist

447
00:24:24,909 --> 00:24:23,120
yeah I guess any more questions I guess

448
00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:24,919
please join me Thank You Carlene Oberto

449
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:29,960
thank you well we were very lucky

450
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:32,150
tonight to have a member of the spanish

451
00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:33,890
skeptical community with this now tell

452
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:35,809
us who you are and exactly what group

453
00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:38,510
you're from well I'm Catalina a minute

454
00:24:45,289 --> 00:24:41,590
and I'm the president of the Spanish

455
00:24:49,580 --> 00:24:45,299
atheist Association and I'm also

456
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:49,590
member of skeptical founder of misfit

457
00:24:55,159 --> 00:24:52,950
pika and well there there's so many

458
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:55,169
things i guess that those two are

459
00:25:01,070 --> 00:24:57,840
probably the most important ones what

460
00:25:03,259 --> 00:25:01,080
made you get into taking on such a large

461
00:25:05,299 --> 00:25:03,269
group as the Roman Catholic Church in

462
00:25:06,619 --> 00:25:05,309
Spain as being an atheist what was the

463
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:06,629
moment where you said that's it I've got

464
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:09,600
to get up and be an activist well I've

465
00:25:15,409 --> 00:25:11,850
never been our real believer I guess

466
00:25:18,739 --> 00:25:15,419
because have grown up in a family of

467
00:25:21,619 --> 00:25:18,749
scientist and I really was not a very

468
00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:21,629
into religion but when you see some

469
00:25:27,289 --> 00:25:25,080
things that the church does a lot of

470
00:25:31,159 --> 00:25:27,299
things that are not fair taking public

471
00:25:34,729 --> 00:25:31,169
money and I went to to akka pollock

472
00:25:36,889 --> 00:25:34,739
school and i heard things that I didn't

473
00:25:40,009 --> 00:25:36,899
like from my teachers and things that

474
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:40,019
made no sense to me that science that I

475
00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:43,289
lost sight and so yeah when you see

476
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:46,679
things that really don't make sense and

477
00:25:51,379 --> 00:25:49,200
you see things that are not very fair

478
00:25:53,629 --> 00:25:51,389
for all the people you I just decided

479
00:25:55,609 --> 00:25:53,639
that I needed to do something about it

480
00:25:58,050 --> 00:25:55,619
and what is your field of science that

481
00:26:01,290 --> 00:25:58,060
excites you the most

482
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:01,300
astronomy I guess and biology probably

483
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,110
there are two fields i really love wow

484
00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:07,360
I'm what's your favorite heavenly body

485
00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:09,580
I'm a real fan of Pluto because it's so

486
00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:10,780
hard to see there's no really good

487
00:26:13,740 --> 00:26:12,550
photos of it and I still think it should

488
00:26:16,290 --> 00:26:13,750
be a planet what's your favorite thing

489
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:16,300
to look at in the sky Jupiter and you

490
00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:18,370
can see Judy hard to miss exactly and

491
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:20,830
then these days here and see me you can

492
00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:26,410
see like Jupiter every day in this how

493
00:26:28,890 --> 00:26:27,790
do you feel about the Pluto debate do

494
00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:28,900
you think it should be let back in the

495
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:31,750
planet club I miss him somehow cuz yeah

496
00:26:37,530 --> 00:26:33,610
there were nine and he was a little God

497
00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:37,540
it was far away so no we mean is you're

498
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:39,550
right yeah yeah I was a poor little guy

499
00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:42,010
and in Spain like one of the latest

500
00:26:46,050 --> 00:26:43,390
stories i remember from madrid they

501
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:46,060
opened a tickle spa in madrid a spire

502
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:47,710
where you get tickled but they don't

503
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:48,910
promise to heal or anything it's just a

504
00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:50,650
spy we get tickled instead of massaged

505
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:52,270
if you heard of that one in madrid I

506
00:26:58,410 --> 00:26:55,390
really don't really know what yeah well

507
00:27:01,560 --> 00:26:58,420
I know that laughing can cure some

508
00:27:02,790 --> 00:27:01,570
things in some way so it's a lot more

509
00:27:04,290 --> 00:27:02,800
harmless than some of the other things

510
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:04,300
you spoke about in your talk tonight

511
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:06,490
particularly how deeply homeopathy is

512
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:09,130
within the Spanish culture yes it is the

513
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:11,170
the problem is when people don't go to

514
00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:13,690
real doctors to get real medicines and

515
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:16,660
they decide to go tickling or on the

516
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:20,770
opposite else those things they say to

517
00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:22,290
defend them that they're harmless

518
00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:24,790
because they don't have side effects but

519
00:27:29,370 --> 00:27:26,740
that's not true they're not harmless

520
00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:29,380
because people don't go to get real

521
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:31,720
medicines when people decide to have

522
00:27:35,790 --> 00:27:34,090
pseudo science instead of real science

523
00:27:38,779 --> 00:27:35,800
they're risking their lives we have

524
00:27:41,310 --> 00:27:38,789
cases of people there

525
00:27:43,399 --> 00:27:41,320
died because they didn't get the right

526
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:43,409
treatment because they decided to go to

527
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:45,730
pseudoscience and pseudo medicine

528
00:27:50,909 --> 00:27:47,350
instead of real medicine so they're not

529
00:27:52,619 --> 00:27:50,919
harmless they can kill people across the

530
00:27:54,029 --> 00:27:52,629
world there's all sorts of traditional

531
00:27:56,489 --> 00:27:54,039
medicines is there a particularly

532
00:27:58,859 --> 00:27:56,499
Spanish indigenous traditional medicine

533
00:28:00,989 --> 00:27:58,869
or culture no not really like Chinese

534
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:00,999
you me or something like that no I'm not

535
00:28:06,419 --> 00:28:04,720
really no there's nothing very hopefully

536
00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:06,429
we don't have something like that to

537
00:28:09,989 --> 00:28:08,529
fight against yeah well you seem you

538
00:28:12,419 --> 00:28:09,999
have Reiki over there which is one of

539
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:12,429
the stranger ones yes very strange in

540
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:14,200
fact I've you know what he was until I

541
00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:17,080
heard that news at all apparently you

542
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:18,940
can do Reiki from a distance to like

543
00:28:24,149 --> 00:28:21,369
remote viewing I'm not an expert i'll

544
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:24,159
try to find out for you you probably you

545
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:26,529
can do in a distance or in time early

546
00:28:31,169 --> 00:28:29,200
with reliably now the Spanish have a

547
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,179
reputation for being a feisty fiery

548
00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:33,039
people have you ever got yourself into

549
00:28:37,259 --> 00:28:34,600
trouble with true believers and never

550
00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:37,269
felt threatened by the book the Roman

551
00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:38,820
Catholic Church followers for example

552
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:42,100
not really because believers in Spain

553
00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:44,080
are not really deep believers there are

554
00:28:50,369 --> 00:28:47,700
more believers of family values and

555
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:50,379
things that they like doing every year

556
00:28:55,049 --> 00:28:52,710
or they go only go to church for

557
00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:55,059
weddings and stuff like that so they

558
00:28:59,970 --> 00:28:56,769
don't really believe the Bible things

559
00:29:01,889 --> 00:28:59,980
like that they teach science in public

560
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:01,899
schools and they only say that the Bible

561
00:29:07,049 --> 00:29:05,440
is stories good stories I guess but no

562
00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:07,059
we don't really have that kind of

563
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:08,950
problem like United States for example I

564
00:29:13,739 --> 00:29:12,369
also the level of fundamentalism is not

565
00:29:16,649 --> 00:29:13,749
as high as it would be in the States yes

566
00:29:18,570 --> 00:29:16,659
yes no no it's not we have problems with

567
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:18,580
people that don't really think about

568
00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:20,290
what they believe

569
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:22,030
the problem with those things that they

570
00:29:26,130 --> 00:29:24,310
think too much about what people are you

571
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,140
there and no in Spain is more likely

572
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:28,960
tradition more more than our strong

573
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:31,750
belief in something very fanatically so

574
00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:33,130
being at the forefront of critical

575
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,780
thinking in Spain what do you think is

576
00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:36,880
the major challenge to your organization

577
00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:41,980
they're probably trying to suit suit

578
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:44,080
science and religion not to get involved

579
00:29:49,290 --> 00:29:47,530
in laws and politics as always say I

580
00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:49,300
don't have any problem of people

581
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:50,740
believing whatever they want to believe

582
00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:53,440
or doing whatever they wanted to do or I

583
00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:55,000
don't have any problem about that if

584
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:56,380
they have the right to believe whatever

585
00:30:00,390 --> 00:29:58,000
they want to believe but they don't have

586
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:00,400
the right to make laws about it then

587
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:04,330
have the right to change or affect lives

588
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:07,570
of others so we what we really need to

589
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:10,210
do is to have politics and laws the

590
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:13,810
based in reason and to ensure make sure

591
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:15,340
that everyone has the right to believe

592
00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:17,770
whatever they want to believe and how do

593
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:19,510
you compare the skipper scizzum a theist

594
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:21,370
movement in Spain to here in Australia

595
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:22,210
do you think there's some similarities

596
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:25,450
or some very big differences I haven't

597
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:27,790
been here long enough to really tell but

598
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:29,230
for one have you had any good arguments

599
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:32,530
yet but what I've seen is pretty similar

600
00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:35,370
the difference is really common the

601
00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:38,140
believers and things like that but um I

602
00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:40,780
found now that skeptics are more or less

603
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:42,580
the same all around the world which is a

604
00:30:55,879 --> 00:30:54,259
have you heard about QED the exciting

605
00:30:59,210 --> 00:30:55,889
skeptical conference 10th and 11th of

606
00:31:00,739 --> 00:30:59,220
March 2012 quite exciting days you're

607
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:00,749
probably wondering why should i go to

608
00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:03,450
QED while the existential dilemma will

609
00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:05,340
have the investigator and legend Joe

610
00:31:09,739 --> 00:31:07,350
Nickell quite extraordinary detective

611
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:09,749
alternative medicine expert adsorb Ernst

612
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,090
quacks in Deward difficulties monsters

613
00:31:17,090 --> 00:31:14,159
werewolves and lucid dreaming from debra

614
00:31:19,580 --> 00:31:17,100
hi working theory demons Massimo

615
00:31:22,159 --> 00:31:19,590
polidoro head of the Italian skeptic

616
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:22,169
questo agrees your data tape it a ran a

617
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:23,970
and conspiracy theories whitey

618
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:26,850
beatable secular campaign Miriam namazi

619
00:31:30,979 --> 00:31:29,129
well equality detractors sara angeles

620
00:31:33,979 --> 00:31:30,989
will shows how to play the Federman with

621
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:33,989
robots withering electronic devices you

622
00:31:37,669 --> 00:31:35,519
followed 60 and ridpath with

623
00:31:39,919 --> 00:31:37,679
extraterrestrial details professor steve

624
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:39,929
jones and why creationism is not quiet

625
00:31:43,729 --> 00:31:41,730
and evolution deniers podcaster and

626
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:43,739
spoon bender Richard Saunders questions

627
00:31:48,229 --> 00:31:46,049
ESP demonstrations for a filia Benson

628
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:48,239
Queen existentialist debater and we'll

629
00:31:52,399 --> 00:31:50,129
have comedy from Robin Ince and guests

630
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:52,409
quality into tim and definitely tickets

631
00:31:56,869 --> 00:31:54,210
her 89 pounds in there going fast so

632
00:31:59,960 --> 00:31:56,879
hurry queue everybody directly would you

633
00:32:03,979 --> 00:31:59,970
cut that out you can get your ticket

634
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:03,989
from QED calm dot org court event dome

635
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:06,090
in marsh seriously if you don't stop

636
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:07,440
bang enough to hurt quickly end

637
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:10,080
discussion comes QED mot juste question

638
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:24,020
is a message from Victorian skeptics the

639
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:26,130
Victorian skeptics are holding a panel

640
00:32:31,220 --> 00:32:28,290
discussion this wednesday the 16th of

641
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:31,230
november at lanata restaurant Carlton in

642
00:32:37,490 --> 00:32:34,530
Melbourne the panelists are Loretta

643
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:37,500
Marin of course the jelly bean lady dr.

644
00:32:43,790 --> 00:32:40,370
ken harvey dr. Steven basa and

645
00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:43,800
doctormick the panel discussion is

646
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:48,360
titled giving the tiger some teeth the

647
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:50,570
shameful state of alternative medicine

648
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:53,850
regulation in Australia the panel has

649
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:55,650
been prompted by recent events in

650
00:32:59,420 --> 00:32:57,840
alternative medicine such as Blackmore's

651
00:33:02,900 --> 00:32:59,430
deal with the pharmacy guild and the

652
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:02,910
shonky award for census limb the TGA

653
00:33:07,910 --> 00:33:05,640
continue to take no action against scams

654
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:07,920
and placebo medicine although they keep

655
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:10,530
hinting that change is in the wind the

656
00:33:14,660 --> 00:33:12,960
panel is a once-only event mainly

657
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:14,670
because Loretta Marin will be in

658
00:33:18,170 --> 00:33:16,350
Melbourne for a short time only for

659
00:33:20,330 --> 00:33:18,180
those coming along there will be an

660
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:20,340
opportunity to ask questions and engage

661
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:22,620
in discussion with the distinguished

662
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:25,050
panelists whilst nomming oh that's a

663
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:26,370
good restaurant I've been there many

664
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:29,310
times of the Victorian our skeptics moon

665
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:33,120
good stuff at home yes nomming on an

666
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:35,370
excellent learn altar meal the date

667
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:37,890
again is wednesday the 16th of november

668
00:33:43,010 --> 00:33:40,320
please see the Vic skeptics website for

669
00:33:47,180 --> 00:33:43,020
details that's HTTP colon slash slash

670
00:33:54,670 --> 00:33:47,190
Vic skeptics wordpress com there are

671
00:34:02,280 --> 00:33:59,870
here's my not spooky action at the

672
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:02,290
distance

673
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:04,610
there's a gentleman sent is sitting in

674
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:05,990
England whereabouts are you in England

675
00:34:12,190 --> 00:34:09,590
peers given I'm in London in Hackney now

676
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:12,200
what hang on that's where Simon Lebon

677
00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:15,200
lives does he either live around here

678
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:18,140
well I so what well so why would you

679
00:34:21,940 --> 00:34:20,210
leave an area where savin lebon may live

680
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:21,950
to go and risk your life trying

681
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,320
different sorts of folk medicines from

682
00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:26,960
around the world well because I've first

683
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:28,730
studied these things for a while now I

684
00:34:33,790 --> 00:34:30,320
did a human sciences degree at Oxford

685
00:34:36,070 --> 00:34:33,800
University and I'm fascinated by how the

686
00:34:38,380 --> 00:34:36,080
different peoples around the world deal

687
00:34:40,030 --> 00:34:38,390
with health care now I've grown up in

688
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:40,040
England with the National Health Service

689
00:34:44,650 --> 00:34:42,350
like your Medicare and I love it it's

690
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:44,660
great and I like white coat medicine as

691
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:46,850
I call it it's fantastic science is

692
00:34:50,980 --> 00:34:48,650
great I wouldn't wouldn't lose it for

693
00:34:53,110 --> 00:34:50,990
the world but I just wonder whether

694
00:34:55,420 --> 00:34:53,120
there's other answers in other places

695
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:55,430
that we could listen to and get some

696
00:34:59,320 --> 00:34:57,290
benefit from you have done a lot of

697
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:59,330
study into this area and give a bit of a

698
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:00,880
specialist and that's what tweaked your

699
00:35:04,270 --> 00:35:02,870
reason to run around the world and put

700
00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:04,280
your own life potentially at risk with

701
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:06,740
some of these things yeah um there was a

702
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:09,680
little bit of life risking um the whole

703
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:11,210
thing is that the series is called the

704
00:35:15,370 --> 00:35:13,370
witch doctor will see you now and that's

705
00:35:17,470 --> 00:35:15,380
kind of a cheeky title but it really is

706
00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:17,480
about the witch doctors and the strange

707
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:19,070
remedies around the world but it's also

708
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:22,250
about some very well researched things

709
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:23,930
like traditional Chinese medicine and

710
00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:26,150
acupuncture we go all the way around the

711
00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:28,820
world we try everything now that will

712
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,470
see the skeptics would immediately say

713
00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:32,960
that acupuncture itself is is under fire

714
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:34,670
but there's no real scientific evidence

715
00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:36,650
that it actually works well actually

716
00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:38,870
that is one of the things that has been

717
00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:42,200
proven by scientists in white coats they

718
00:35:47,230 --> 00:35:44,300
have a very limited thing that they will

719
00:35:49,060 --> 00:35:47,240
accept acupuncture is useful for but I

720
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:49,070
believe things like come something like

721
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,370
dental pain and arthritic knees have

722
00:35:56,860 --> 00:35:54,320
actually been tested with double brine

723
00:35:59,470 --> 00:35:56,870
double-blind trials in the lab as it

724
00:36:01,660 --> 00:35:59,480
were and proven to have some relief

725
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:01,670
whereas most of the other remedies we

726
00:36:07,090 --> 00:36:04,370
were trying like freshly squeezed snakes

727
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:07,100
blood and being buried it buried in a

728
00:36:11,140 --> 00:36:09,290
shallow grave in Cameroon well nobody's

729
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:11,150
tested those for a very good reason and

730
00:36:14,740 --> 00:36:12,740
and that they're the ones i would assume

731
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:14,750
would be the life risking one's being

732
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:15,770
buried for a little bit

733
00:36:20,410 --> 00:36:17,930
and also potential diseases you may pick

734
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:20,420
up from the medicine itself yes there

735
00:36:24,010 --> 00:36:21,710
was always the worry there was also

736
00:36:27,610 --> 00:36:24,020
quite a lot of bloodletting involved I

737
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:27,620
had myself cut and poked and prodded and

738
00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:29,330
there's always that concern when you're

739
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:31,670
being cut and poked and prodded in the

740
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:34,070
middle of a jungle that you could end up

741
00:36:39,490 --> 00:36:36,530
with them infection so yes that was a

742
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:39,500
bit of a risk why did you get interested

743
00:36:42,610 --> 00:36:41,090
in these remedies originally to want to

744
00:36:44,170 --> 00:36:42,620
study them was that something in your

745
00:36:45,790 --> 00:36:44,180
family did you read a book do to see a

746
00:36:48,820 --> 00:36:45,800
really great witch doctor movie when you

747
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:48,830
were young um well the thing actually is

748
00:36:53,770 --> 00:36:50,570
a very very strange story but basically

749
00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:53,780
i ended up specializing at university in

750
00:36:59,020 --> 00:36:56,630
the hallucinogens used by shamans and

751
00:37:00,700 --> 00:36:59,030
witch doctors in south america not as

752
00:37:03,580 --> 00:37:00,710
though this wasn't because of any sort

753
00:37:06,250 --> 00:37:03,590
of rave scene in the 90s wallet in at

754
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:06,260
all this was pure academic interest

755
00:37:09,730 --> 00:37:08,330
officer I'm just just checking on that

756
00:37:11,290 --> 00:37:09,740
one there cuz so cuz I know a lot of

757
00:37:12,850 --> 00:37:11,300
people interested in shamanism there was

758
00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:12,860
even that great band with the same name

759
00:37:16,990 --> 00:37:14,630
there in the you can slightly just I

760
00:37:19,930 --> 00:37:17,000
mean it's it's all part of you know

761
00:37:22,510 --> 00:37:19,940
cultural shift in the west where we are

762
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:22,520
perhaps a little less arrogant than we

763
00:37:26,050 --> 00:37:24,170
were before and we are perhaps a little

764
00:37:28,330 --> 00:37:26,060
bit more willing to think that other

765
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:28,340
cultures may have some answers and I

766
00:37:32,770 --> 00:37:30,530
think they really do and did you

767
00:37:34,540 --> 00:37:32,780
experience any hallucinogenic experience

768
00:37:36,070 --> 00:37:34,550
that made you break through a wall or a

769
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,080
membrane or go into an area that

770
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:38,480
actually made you some sort of healthier

771
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:40,610
person well this is the interesting

772
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:44,240
thing in Peru in the third episode of

773
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:45,910
the witch doctor will see you now I

774
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:48,560
experienced drinking a drink called

775
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:50,800
ayahuasca which is a hallucinogen and

776
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:53,720
the the shamans then medicine men who

777
00:37:57,850 --> 00:37:55,970
gave it to me explained that what they

778
00:38:00,100 --> 00:37:57,860
use it for is instead of giving the

779
00:38:01,930 --> 00:38:00,110
medicine just to the patient they give

780
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:01,940
it to the patient and they take it

781
00:38:08,020 --> 00:38:04,880
themselves and under the influence of it

782
00:38:10,510 --> 00:38:08,030
they say that they can see healthiness

783
00:38:13,810 --> 00:38:10,520
and unhealthiness in the patient's body

784
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:13,820
now I can't be sure that that works but

785
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:15,890
this is a story told to me with great

786
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:18,230
seriousness again and again and in Peru

787
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:20,630
this is a national treasure this drink

788
00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:23,690
so just imagine if this could have some

789
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:26,660
validity this is liquid MRI scans and a

790
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:28,330
heck of a lot cheaper

791
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:30,370
and also something that we don't always

792
00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:32,530
do in the West is if we do take some LSD

793
00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:36,070
type compound we may do it alone or I

794
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:37,540
knew if we certainly have a shared

795
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:39,070
experience they are having a shared

796
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:41,010
experience here so if anything does go

797
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:44,050
unusual you're feeling not so well there

798
00:38:47,610 --> 00:38:45,730
is someone sharing it with you would

799
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:47,620
that be part of the experience a very

800
00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:50,530
good point the medicine men in Peru the

801
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:54,340
iOS Karos they have a system of sacred

802
00:38:59,700 --> 00:38:56,890
songs they call them EK rose and these

803
00:39:03,030 --> 00:38:59,710
sacred songs have been honed over let's

804
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:03,040
say about a thousand years to show you

805
00:39:07,830 --> 00:39:05,260
what you need to see so it's like a sec

806
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:07,840
a roadmap ahead now none of this is

807
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:10,570
proven by Western scientific standards

808
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:12,370
but I still think it's really

809
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:14,290
interesting and really worth examining

810
00:39:18,270 --> 00:39:15,790
and and that's the whole point of the

811
00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:18,280
witch doctor will see you now and for

812
00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:20,140
this like it was this that people go

813
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:21,640
look peers I'm not quite sure you should

814
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:24,250
go and do this series well National

815
00:39:28,890 --> 00:39:26,890
Geographic are a very serious company

816
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:28,900
and they wanted to know that this was

817
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:31,810
going to be worthwhile and also safe

818
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:35,050
enough they were prepared to take some

819
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:36,970
risks in the interests of science and

820
00:39:43,050 --> 00:39:39,700
research but they wanted us to come home

821
00:39:45,570 --> 00:39:43,060
alive and and we did and what does the

822
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:45,580
how do you look how does getting buried

823
00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:49,210
in a shallow grave cure anything well to

824
00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:51,550
be honest I don't think it does cure

825
00:39:55,830 --> 00:39:54,280
anything except okay we did it twice

826
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:55,840
actually what one set of people got

827
00:40:00,330 --> 00:39:58,000
buried in a shallow grave to help cure

828
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:00,340
eczema in India that didn't work for

829
00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:03,130
them and then again in Cameroon and

830
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:05,830
another episode a woman who's suffering

831
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:09,520
from anxiety and sort of generalized the

832
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:12,250
fear of life that the prescription then

833
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:13,810
from the witch doctor was that she

834
00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:15,930
should be put into a shallow grave and

835
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:19,380
surrounded with candles and a circle of

836
00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:23,200
freshly slaughtered chickens blood now

837
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,200
that was all going ok her anxiety levels

838
00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:28,240
did seem to be decreasing but then they

839
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:31,720
rapidly increased because a gang of what

840
00:40:36,330 --> 00:40:34,030
we thought would just thugs with machine

841
00:40:38,310 --> 00:40:36,340
guns turned up and started pointing AK

842
00:40:40,020 --> 00:40:38,320
forty-sevens at us it turned out these

843
00:40:41,630 --> 00:40:40,030
were actually the police and they took

844
00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:41,640
us into custody and

845
00:40:46,339 --> 00:40:43,529
questioned us for five hours and by the

846
00:40:48,740 --> 00:40:46,349
end of that my patients anxiety levels

847
00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:48,750
had risen substantially imagine that

848
00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:51,390
would be the case what do you find when

849
00:40:55,279 --> 00:40:53,400
you're looking back at these episodes as

850
00:40:56,930 --> 00:40:55,289
being the most fascinating one the one

851
00:40:59,089 --> 00:40:56,940
where you go would boy I can't believe I

852
00:41:01,940 --> 00:40:59,099
got away with that I mean that sounds

853
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:01,950
like a good of him pretty close yes that

854
00:41:05,329 --> 00:41:03,210
would that was that was close and that

855
00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:05,339
was scary and and I'm very grateful to

856
00:41:10,579 --> 00:41:08,099
the British High Commissioner in

857
00:41:12,410 --> 00:41:10,589
Cameroon for sorting us out there the

858
00:41:14,299 --> 00:41:12,420
other thing I think is pretty startling

859
00:41:16,549 --> 00:41:14,309
was something i just cannot explain

860
00:41:19,370 --> 00:41:16,559
which was in the the first episode which

861
00:41:22,279 --> 00:41:19,380
is that someone got cured through

862
00:41:25,490 --> 00:41:22,289
acupuncture in their tongue and they had

863
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,500
a a real moment of miraculous healing

864
00:41:30,170 --> 00:41:27,359
where someone jab their tongue and

865
00:41:32,420 --> 00:41:30,180
immediately their back was freed of the

866
00:41:34,099 --> 00:41:32,430
pain now this was pretty astonishing to

867
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:34,109
me and astonishing to everyone in the

868
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:36,089
room the camera man put his camera down

869
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:38,130
and said wow I've got a bad back to cure

870
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:40,049
me and it was it was just extraordinary

871
00:41:44,420 --> 00:41:42,510
it was basically people lining up for a

872
00:41:45,890 --> 00:41:44,430
miracle The Chronicle delaying it I

873
00:41:48,319 --> 00:41:45,900
don't know if it works a temporary a

874
00:41:50,029 --> 00:41:48,329
burst of adrenaline or maybe look this

875
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:50,039
is purely psychosomatic to start with or

876
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:51,690
maybe it's some sort of wacky placebo

877
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,960
effect all of those are possible and you

878
00:41:59,480 --> 00:41:57,119
know throughout the series we always try

879
00:42:02,720 --> 00:41:59,490
to keep in mind that placebo is powerful

880
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:02,730
and anecdote does not equal evidence you

881
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:04,410
know one person being healed in front of

882
00:42:09,890 --> 00:42:06,480
you does not mean that that therapy will

883
00:42:13,579 --> 00:42:09,900
always work but equally but they got

884
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:13,589
cured and well that was one I think for

885
00:42:17,569 --> 00:42:15,690
me because I've seen the evidence and

886
00:42:19,279 --> 00:42:17,579
looked at the research into acupuncture

887
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:19,289
that was one for me that really made me

888
00:42:25,099 --> 00:42:22,529
raise one eyebrow right up to the top of

889
00:42:27,890 --> 00:42:25,109
my forehead and think good lord maybe

890
00:42:30,259 --> 00:42:27,900
this is and there a cure lots more

891
00:42:32,809 --> 00:42:30,269
research needed but fascinating to watch

892
00:42:34,279 --> 00:42:32,819
yes so how did you have did how much you

893
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:34,289
mentioned they're pretty much you've had

894
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:36,089
to balance your scientific training

895
00:42:40,759 --> 00:42:38,730
experience with actual your own

896
00:42:42,799 --> 00:42:40,769
experience and first-hand experience as

897
00:42:44,809 --> 00:42:42,809
we all know is very powerful and like

898
00:42:46,759 --> 00:42:44,819
you said it's not evidence but we're

899
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:46,769
always having that dichotomy going on

900
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:50,640
your head definitely and it's it's the

901
00:42:54,060 --> 00:42:52,710
other thing is a lot of these therapies

902
00:42:58,590 --> 00:42:54,070
around the world

903
00:43:00,210 --> 00:42:58,600
they do require you to to believe in

904
00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:00,220
them a bit so it's very difficult for a

905
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:02,590
westerner to walk in and go go and prove

906
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:04,690
it then rub me down with that snake oil

907
00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:08,530
and let's see the effect so is there

908
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,510
something we could learn from that is

909
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:12,640
there some way that we could harness the

910
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:15,730
placebo effect and also use it in

911
00:43:19,770 --> 00:43:17,770
Western medicine I still think there are

912
00:43:21,810 --> 00:43:19,780
unanswered questions out there now peas

913
00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:21,820
given the show is the witch doctor will

914
00:43:26,010 --> 00:43:23,470
see you now now you've done this is

915
00:43:27,660 --> 00:43:26,020
there is a really wild more extreme

916
00:43:30,210 --> 00:43:27,670
treatment that you would like to go for

917
00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:30,220
if you had another season another season

918
00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:32,350
now where would I go I definitely said

919
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:33,910
there's some stuff in the Arctic I'd

920
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:36,130
like to look at and there's all sorts of

921
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:38,710
strange plants to be eaten and drunk

922
00:43:42,990 --> 00:43:41,440
around the world and you sound like a

923
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:43,000
pretty game guy to be doing this too

924
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:44,770
because I mean a lot of strange plants

925
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:47,980
are not drank for a reason but this is

926
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:49,930
the thing exactly they're not drunk for

927
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:52,720
a reason but my view is if a tribal

928
00:43:56,670 --> 00:43:54,640
society has been taking a particular

929
00:43:58,740 --> 00:43:56,680
plant or a particular medicine or a

930
00:44:01,350 --> 00:43:58,750
particular remedy for let's say a

931
00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:01,360
thousand years then for me that is good

932
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:03,400
enough evidence that it's worth a closer

933
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:05,230
look it doesn't mean it works but it's

934
00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:06,970
worth a closer look because it probably

935
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:08,680
won't kill you and is there a

936
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:10,560
commonality of where all these ancient

937
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:13,690
civilizations say they got these drugs

938
00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:15,670
and cures for is it something that their

939
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:17,230
ancestors did it was something that was

940
00:44:20,970 --> 00:44:18,970
commonly handed down from the gods did

941
00:44:24,030 --> 00:44:20,980
they have a common story well there was

942
00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:24,040
one particular guy i spoke to in peru in

943
00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:26,140
the jungles of Peru nahin he answered

944
00:44:29,460 --> 00:44:27,670
the question very simply you know where

945
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:29,470
do you get this medicine from how do you

946
00:44:35,940 --> 00:44:32,410
know which plant will cure which disease

947
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:35,950
the answer is the plants tell me the the

948
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:38,710
plant speak to me in the visions that he

949
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:40,540
that he sees under the influence of

950
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:42,610
ayahuasca and the plants quite simply

951
00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:45,850
tell him which of us to use next is this

952
00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:48,040
extraordinary concept and I asked him in

953
00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:49,900
several different ways to find out are

954
00:44:55,950 --> 00:44:52,150
you serious and he's deadly serious that

955
00:44:58,110 --> 00:44:55,960
is exactly how he is trained as a doctor

956
00:45:00,240 --> 00:44:58,120
in his community is by drinking

957
00:45:02,610 --> 00:45:00,250
different plant juices and they will

958
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:02,620
tell him what to do now in our Western

959
00:45:07,590 --> 00:45:05,340
society we assume that someone who takes

960
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:07,600
hallucinogenic drugs on a regular basis

961
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:08,110
is

962
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,160
person seem to have a grip on reality

963
00:45:17,610 --> 00:45:14,400
when not under the effect of these drugs

964
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:17,620
absolutely it was a charming man and him

965
00:45:23,070 --> 00:45:20,410
and his wife work as a doctor you know

966
00:45:25,470 --> 00:45:23,080
mr. and mrs. team basically and they are

967
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:25,480
a lovely couple and they're in their 50s

968
00:45:30,210 --> 00:45:27,850
now I think and yeah totally

969
00:45:32,490 --> 00:45:30,220
down-to-earth sorted people who were

970
00:45:33,870 --> 00:45:32,500
just fun to be with and very serious

971
00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:33,880
when they were discussing things that

972
00:45:38,580 --> 00:45:36,070
were serious and able to have a laugh

973
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:38,590
when need be look peers your peers given

974
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:40,210
that the witch doctor will see you a man

975
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:42,010
who's gone out and sought the evidence

976
00:45:46,260 --> 00:45:44,290
and you we can all see the results on

977
00:45:48,330 --> 00:45:46,270
the TV show and is there any way that we

978
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:48,340
could relate what you've been doing to

979
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:50,410
hello to our everyday 20th century life

980
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:53,530
in the urban city jungle I think yes

981
00:45:59,180 --> 00:45:56,530
because we have an episode in India in

982
00:46:01,770 --> 00:45:59,190
particular were a lot of talk about

983
00:46:03,660 --> 00:46:01,780
looking at your own life holistically

984
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:03,670
and looking at what you're eating and

985
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:05,650
how you're behaving as a way of

986
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,330
achieving health and that just makes

987
00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:09,520
sense I think well yeah I'm everyone

988
00:46:12,570 --> 00:46:10,840
knows that it's a healthy diet you know

989
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:12,580
you eat less and exercise more but no

990
00:46:16,830 --> 00:46:14,080
one seems to want to do that do they

991
00:46:19,620 --> 00:46:16,840
know ah but that's interesting that you

992
00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:19,630
know one effect on me after having done

993
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:21,880
the whole series is that I'm taking my

994
00:46:26,850 --> 00:46:24,370
health more seriously I've started going

995
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:26,860
for some acupuncture I'm doing a bit of

996
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:29,890
Pilates and I'm looking after myself and

997
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:32,530
I think that is a result of having gone

998
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:34,210
through all of the different therapies

999
00:46:37,530 --> 00:46:36,010
that were offered in the witch doctor

1000
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:37,540
will see you now and i'm now thinking

1001
00:46:41,550 --> 00:46:39,760
you know what i would like to stay

1002
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:41,560
healthy so I don't have to see which

1003
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,930
doctors in the future Thank You peers

1004
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:45,520
given have a look at the show the witch

1005
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:46,690
doctor will see you now now i'm

1006
00:46:50,850 --> 00:46:48,070
interested in where you might go if you

1007
00:46:54,510 --> 00:46:50,860
get another series I would go to the

1008
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:54,520
Arctic I would go to Tibet I would go

1009
00:47:00,900 --> 00:46:57,910
deeper into China and I bet there's some

1010
00:47:03,570 --> 00:47:00,910
stuff in Eastern Europe which is old

1011
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:03,580
ancient remedies that may be in danger

1012
00:47:07,110 --> 00:47:05,890
of dying out one last local question

1013
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:07,120
before we go is there any Aboriginal

1014
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:09,190
remedies here from Australia that have

1015
00:47:13,980 --> 00:47:11,920
tweaked your interest there are and the

1016
00:47:16,830 --> 00:47:13,990
that I would love to come back to

1017
00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:16,840
Australia my girlfriend's family comes

1018
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:19,360
from Australia and a big shout out to

1019
00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:21,550
the serenity at bonny doon

1020
00:47:27,090 --> 00:47:24,310
but I would like to come back and visit

1021
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:27,100
Aboriginal communities and would love to

1022
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:28,960
share the remedies they have I

1023
00:47:33,660 --> 00:47:30,730
understand those particular difficulties

1024
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:33,670
with the filming Aboriginal people they

1025
00:47:38,940 --> 00:47:36,910
may not want to be filmed and to show

1026
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:38,950
their remedies to the camera and I think

1027
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:40,450
that was something else we really wanted

1028
00:47:45,690 --> 00:47:42,850
to keep in mind is to be respectful of

1029
00:48:06,960 --> 00:47:45,700
the communities we visited and only show

1030
00:48:11,890 --> 00:48:10,210
hi I'm on it oh yeah Kristen Aviva tips

1031
00:48:14,259 --> 00:48:11,900
addai so much glitter of a skeptic zone

1032
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:14,269
I'm skeptical in la liga the VINs not a

1033
00:48:18,549 --> 00:48:16,609
blog gear up a BF a podcast of reading

1034
00:48:21,099 --> 00:48:18,559
and skip sistemas leaks in this drama

1035
00:48:22,539 --> 00:48:21,109
central data skips a stall demo or hyper

1036
00:48:24,849 --> 00:48:22,549
besides the deeps corner Chiclets and

1037
00:48:26,170 --> 00:48:24,859
calendar / activated or link eternity

1038
00:48:27,999 --> 00:48:26,180
research it escapes this blog in

1039
00:48:29,799 --> 00:48:28,009
aquatarium lay autodesk ateres Hecate

1040
00:48:46,989 --> 00:48:29,809
performance so stick kingdom of delta do

1041
00:48:49,479 --> 00:48:46,999
alsa escapes his thoughts hello hello

1042
00:48:51,609 --> 00:48:49,489
from a New Orleans tram I'm in New

1043
00:48:53,499 --> 00:48:51,619
Orleans for the Saigon 2011 the

1044
00:48:56,739 --> 00:48:53,509
committee for skeptical inquiry

1045
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:56,749
convention having a little adventure out

1046
00:49:01,359 --> 00:48:59,119
here the local flavor there's lots of

1047
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:01,369
people dressed up in crazy stuff but

1048
00:49:06,539 --> 00:49:03,650
right now I'm going to take you back to

1049
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:06,549
the convention where I interview skip go

1050
00:49:22,609 --> 00:49:19,640
well sadly the cyclone is wrapping up

1051
00:49:24,890 --> 00:49:22,619
here the committee for skeptical inquiry

1052
00:49:28,849 --> 00:49:24,900
convention here in New Orleans but I'm

1053
00:49:30,829 --> 00:49:28,859
very lucky to have found Harriet hall

1054
00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:30,839
skip doc and grabbed her for a quick

1055
00:49:37,069 --> 00:49:33,720
interview hello Harry hello Richard now

1056
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:37,079
I met you on a slow boat to Alaska many

1057
00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:39,210
years ago that's right i still have the

1058
00:49:46,839 --> 00:49:43,470
little origami rabbit in a hat that you

1059
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:46,849
made for me on that cruise rabid elated

1060
00:49:51,799 --> 00:49:49,260
that's fantastic is that was that was a

1061
00:49:54,740 --> 00:49:51,809
really entertaining time for sponsor it

1062
00:49:56,900 --> 00:49:54,750
was really enjoyed that now you were and

1063
00:49:58,849 --> 00:49:56,910
I think I probably missed it from jet

1064
00:50:01,160 --> 00:49:58,859
lag or I don't know what you were

1065
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:01,170
involved in a panel as I understand it

1066
00:50:05,029 --> 00:50:03,690
all you're giving it a presentation we

1067
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:05,039
had three of us talking about

1068
00:50:10,370 --> 00:50:07,890
alternative medicine run and my talk was

1069
00:50:12,589 --> 00:50:10,380
puncturing the acupuncture myth I'm

1070
00:50:15,529 --> 00:50:12,599
during the acupuncture me the oh

1071
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:15,539
I'm sorry I missed that absolutely well

1072
00:50:19,999 --> 00:50:17,490
there were so many topics is hot for us

1073
00:50:22,249 --> 00:50:20,009
all to keep up and did you did you

1074
00:50:24,499 --> 00:50:22,259
manage to functioning occupation well I

1075
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:24,509
think I did I think almost everything

1076
00:50:28,099 --> 00:50:26,220
you've ever heard about acupuncture is

1077
00:50:30,349 --> 00:50:28,109
wrong even starting with a simple

1078
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,359
description of it as an ancient Chinese

1079
00:50:35,420 --> 00:50:32,880
method it's nowhere near as ancient as

1080
00:50:37,339 --> 00:50:35,430
they say is probably not even Chinese it

1081
00:50:40,309 --> 00:50:37,349
probably originated in Greece and then

1082
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:40,319
traveled east and it's not a method it's

1083
00:50:43,789 --> 00:50:42,089
a whole bunch of different methods so

1084
00:50:46,730 --> 00:50:43,799
when you talk about acupuncture you got

1085
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:46,740
to specify which acupuncture really

1086
00:50:53,029 --> 00:50:50,730
mm-hmm so I I'm surprised I didn't know

1087
00:50:55,759 --> 00:50:53,039
it didn't I didn't think it originated

1088
00:50:58,130 --> 00:50:55,769
in ancient China and now you say it's

1089
00:50:59,930 --> 00:50:58,140
not even Chinese it may not be the

1090
00:51:02,089 --> 00:50:59,940
historians are looking into it and

1091
00:51:04,130 --> 00:51:02,099
they're the earliest texts in China that

1092
00:51:05,499 --> 00:51:04,140
they said we're about acupuncture turn

1093
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:05,509
out to have been about bloodletting

1094
00:51:12,799 --> 00:51:10,200
really yes which is absolutely not what

1095
00:51:14,690 --> 00:51:12,809
acupuncture is now yeah but it's

1096
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:14,700
surprisingly popular around the world

1097
00:51:18,349 --> 00:51:16,890
isn't it yes and it's the one thing an

1098
00:51:20,539 --> 00:51:18,359
alternative medicine that a lot of

1099
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:20,549
people believe there is evidence for but

1100
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:21,090
the evidence

1101
00:51:24,890 --> 00:51:23,370
early doesn't hold up the best studies

1102
00:51:26,270 --> 00:51:24,900
have shown that it doesn't matter where

1103
00:51:28,070 --> 00:51:26,280
you put the needles it doesn't even

1104
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:28,080
matter whether you use needles urban

1105
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:29,490
studies with toothpicks where the

1106
00:51:34,340 --> 00:51:30,960
toothpicks touching the scanner work

1107
00:51:36,620 --> 00:51:34,350
just as well yes yeah Oh shall we say

1108
00:51:38,750 --> 00:51:36,630
what not better than placebo right

1109
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:38,760
because when when it appears that

1110
00:51:46,690 --> 00:51:40,740
acupuncture works it can be attributed

1111
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:46,700
to all the surrounding drama and the

1112
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:49,530
suggestion and all of the nonspecific

1113
00:51:54,170 --> 00:51:52,710
effects of a medical interaction but it

1114
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:54,180
is interesting as you say a lot of

1115
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:58,170
people as human worked and they're quite

1116
00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:00,960
strident about it yes so when I bring it

1117
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,720
up or even on a TV show I've been doing

1118
00:52:08,270 --> 00:52:05,520
recently one of the things point put

1119
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:08,280
towards me I you skeptics you were even

1120
00:52:13,250 --> 00:52:11,730
wrong about acupuncture as to submit for

1121
00:52:16,940 --> 00:52:13,260
many people this is an absolutely

1122
00:52:18,620 --> 00:52:16,950
ingrained factor of medicine is that

1123
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:18,630
acupuncture works its usual over the

1124
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:21,330
world and people get better I wish I

1125
00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:23,220
could invent something so successful yes

1126
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:25,820
the medical letter which is a very

1127
00:52:32,060 --> 00:52:30,690
reliable a group of scientists that put

1128
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:32,070
their heads together they don't have any

1129
00:52:36,110 --> 00:52:33,960
influences over them they're just an

1130
00:52:37,310 --> 00:52:36,120
independent investigation group they've

1131
00:52:39,050 --> 00:52:37,320
looked at all the evidence for

1132
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:39,060
acupuncture and they say there is no

1133
00:52:43,070 --> 00:52:41,370
credible repeated evidence that

1134
00:52:45,980 --> 00:52:43,080
acupuncture works for any medical

1135
00:52:49,490 --> 00:52:45,990
condition that's pretty definite yes

1136
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:49,500
absolutely oh maybe I can invent

1137
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:52,770
something there for men so that that

1138
00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:56,250
would be as I am now I do regret that I

1139
00:52:59,870 --> 00:52:58,650
didn't catch up with that that talk but

1140
00:53:02,090 --> 00:52:59,880
I'm sure you'll be giving it again

1141
00:53:07,940 --> 00:53:02,100
somewhere as a matter of fact I'm giving

1142
00:53:12,980 --> 00:53:07,950
it next week in Montreal I think about

1143
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:12,990
then i'll be in Death Valley now how is

1144
00:53:20,060 --> 00:53:15,690
the skip doc Korea been treating you

1145
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:20,070
since that voyage in 2007 I think we do

1146
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:22,510
I've been having a wonderful time I've

1147
00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:24,160
been writing an article every week for

1148
00:53:27,810 --> 00:53:25,840
science-based medicine and I'm a

1149
00:53:30,330 --> 00:53:27,820
contributing editor to both skeptic

1150
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:30,340
magazine and skeptical Inquirer I've

1151
00:53:34,980 --> 00:53:32,490
been named a fellow of the committee for

1152
00:53:37,490 --> 00:53:34,990
skeptical inquiry which is one of my

1153
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:37,500
proudest achievements oh then way we are

1154
00:53:43,820 --> 00:53:40,530
what's the word we're fellow fellow

1155
00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:43,830
colleagues indeed yeah it's very flat

1156
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:46,900
reasonable and I published a book my

1157
00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:49,920
memoirs women aren't supposed to fly the

1158
00:53:56,850 --> 00:53:52,990
memoirs of a female flight surgeon and

1159
00:53:59,010 --> 00:53:56,860
I'm helping to revise a consumer health

1160
00:54:00,990 --> 00:53:59,020
textbook with Stephen Barons it'll in

1161
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:01,000
the 9th edition will be coming up to

1162
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,250
early next year and i'll be listed as a

1163
00:54:08,670 --> 00:54:04,960
co-author on that it's not as i know

1164
00:54:10,590 --> 00:54:08,680
that's right so you're certainly not as

1165
00:54:13,020 --> 00:54:10,600
we say resting on your laurels you have

1166
00:54:15,780 --> 00:54:13,030
your busy very busy probably busier now

1167
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:15,790
than you were with your doctor are you

1168
00:54:22,290 --> 00:54:19,710
still out sorry I didn't know what it is

1169
00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:22,300
when I was practicing yeah that's what I

1170
00:54:29,790 --> 00:54:23,980
went I finally got it right and I could

1171
00:54:31,530 --> 00:54:29,800
stop practicing yeah but that must have

1172
00:54:33,540 --> 00:54:31,540
been enjoy your you in the military of

1173
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:33,550
page yes I was in the Air Force for 20

1174
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:35,890
years and retired as a fulcrum yeah it

1175
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:37,930
must have been an enjoyable time I would

1176
00:54:41,370 --> 00:54:39,730
have paint lines I'm a little ashamed

1177
00:54:43,230 --> 00:54:41,380
now to say that I was in the Air Force

1178
00:54:45,690 --> 00:54:43,240
because the Air Force is teaching

1179
00:54:49,230 --> 00:54:45,700
battlefield acupuncture to its doctors

1180
00:54:52,170 --> 00:54:49,240
now what yes your acupuncture no less

1181
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:52,180
which was invented out of thin air by a

1182
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:57,970
Frenchman in 1957 seriously yes but

1183
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:00,880
battle field here acupuncture yes you

1184
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:02,410
can't make up stuff like that that

1185
00:55:06,690 --> 00:55:05,200
sounds so now as you can these are these

1186
00:55:10,110 --> 00:55:06,700
arms got shut off quick where's the

1187
00:55:11,610 --> 00:55:10,120
needles you know oh yeah that is sad it

1188
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:11,620
is really sandy

1189
00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:14,890
and have you managed to make us the fuss

1190
00:55:19,890 --> 00:55:18,250
about this I know because knowing what I

1191
00:55:21,420 --> 00:55:19,900
do about the military I don't think

1192
00:55:25,890 --> 00:55:21,430
anything that I could say would make a

1193
00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:25,900
bit of difference dear do you did well i

1194
00:55:33,780 --> 00:55:27,670
hope i hope some generals listening to

1195
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:33,790
this right now I wish I idea if it's

1196
00:55:38,250 --> 00:55:36,250
still that is pretty funny battlefield

1197
00:55:42,420 --> 00:55:38,260
the ear acupuncture that's pretty

1198
00:55:43,980 --> 00:55:42,430
amazing yes but again I guess somebody

1199
00:55:45,630 --> 00:55:43,990
thought it was a good idea they've

1200
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:45,640
invested a lot of money to do it i guess

1201
00:55:50,340 --> 00:55:48,370
there is a kernel that's are very

1202
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:50,350
important in the military system that

1203
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:52,410
believes in acupuncture and he is is

1204
00:56:01,770 --> 00:55:57,130
spearheading all this really dope about

1205
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:01,780
appeal to authority yes so and you you

1206
00:56:07,350 --> 00:56:05,290
were w television too i think no I've

1207
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:07,360
never been on television I had a column

1208
00:56:10,980 --> 00:56:09,760
in o the oprah magazine okay but I'm

1209
00:56:13,350 --> 00:56:10,990
getting confused was the oprah magazine

1210
00:56:16,290 --> 00:56:13,360
that's right of course enough for few

1211
00:56:18,570 --> 00:56:16,300
months yes and that sort of came to an

1212
00:56:20,790 --> 00:56:18,580
end they sort of fired me without

1213
00:56:25,980 --> 00:56:20,800
bothering to tell me that I was fired he

1214
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:25,990
was rather frustrating but it kind of

1215
00:56:29,250 --> 00:56:27,760
didn't quite see eye to eye with your

1216
00:56:31,410 --> 00:56:29,260
point of view well the whole experience

1217
00:56:33,630 --> 00:56:31,420
is frustrating because they wanted to

1218
00:56:35,820 --> 00:56:33,640
tell me what I could write about they

1219
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:35,830
essentially fed me topics that they

1220
00:56:40,170 --> 00:56:37,510
wanted me to write about Miss common

1221
00:56:43,050 --> 00:56:40,180
myths about medicine and then they would

1222
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:43,060
take apart what I'd written and revise

1223
00:56:48,780 --> 00:56:44,710
it to where I couldn't even recognize it

1224
00:56:51,110 --> 00:56:48,790
is what I started out with and I just I

1225
00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:51,120
didn't enjoy working with them at all

1226
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:53,560
well I mean if someone's going to take a

1227
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:54,810
pot what you've written

1228
00:57:00,560 --> 00:56:57,090
okay I understand on the components and

1229
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:00,570
at what a pity yes what a big pity but I

1230
00:57:04,340 --> 00:57:02,730
guess they know their audience that's

1231
00:57:06,110 --> 00:57:04,350
the joy of writing for the science-based

1232
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:06,120
medicine blog is that there is no

1233
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:08,310
editing I can say anything I want to say

1234
00:57:13,130 --> 00:57:11,040
the way I want to say it it's been great

1235
00:57:15,500 --> 00:57:13,140
psychotherapy for me because I read

1236
00:57:17,810 --> 00:57:15,510
about some stupid thing it makes me

1237
00:57:21,380 --> 00:57:17,820
angry and I get to pour it out on the

1238
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:21,390
blog oh well that's really nice and

1239
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:23,280
that's got a large readership so that's

1240
00:57:29,390 --> 00:57:26,160
you must get some correspondence meant i

1241
00:57:32,030 --> 00:57:29,400
go to all the time i've gotten some very

1242
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:32,040
gratifying correspondence for for

1243
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:35,970
instance people would read about spinal

1244
00:57:39,890 --> 00:57:37,710
decompression machines that i wrote

1245
00:57:41,660 --> 00:57:39,900
about and they'd say i was thinking

1246
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:41,670
about spending five to six thousand

1247
00:57:45,910 --> 00:57:43,200
dollars on this treatment but i found

1248
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:45,920
your article and i say with somebody

1249
00:57:52,550 --> 00:57:49,920
excellent excellent it does do some good

1250
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:52,560
yeah i know sometimes we work we work

1251
00:57:57,770 --> 00:57:55,410
away and do our blogs and our podcasts

1252
00:57:59,840 --> 00:57:57,780
or whatever it is and yeah sometimes you

1253
00:58:01,490 --> 00:57:59,850
do actually learn that what you're doing

1254
00:58:03,490 --> 00:58:01,500
is making difference which i think is

1255
00:58:06,170 --> 00:58:03,500
fantastic so what are your future

1256
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:06,180
prospects what you plan is coming up

1257
00:58:10,130 --> 00:58:08,370
well as i said i've been invited to

1258
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:10,140
Montreal to speak in the truck day

1259
00:58:16,070 --> 00:58:12,000
symposium and I've been invited to speak

1260
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:16,080
in Berlin next spring at the world

1261
00:58:20,090 --> 00:58:17,810
skeptics conference or something like

1262
00:58:21,470 --> 00:58:20,100
unbelievable and when is that what time

1263
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:21,480
V they do in May

1264
00:58:28,250 --> 00:58:26,880
April much way from okay I'm gum my mind

1265
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:28,260
brain is ticking over because i'll be in

1266
00:58:35,660 --> 00:58:32,490
Manchester in March I for the QED maybe

1267
00:58:37,340 --> 00:58:35,670
I can extend my trip had to Berlin I

1268
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:37,350
don't know that's very exciting this

1269
00:58:43,340 --> 00:58:40,170
that's very exciting and at any books in

1270
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:43,350
the well I have a book proposal in for a

1271
00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:45,570
compilation of some of my articles right

1272
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:47,880
I don't know if that's going to fly or

1273
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:51,150
not it's hard to get into publishing i

1274
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:52,890
self-published my memoirs because i

1275
00:58:56,690 --> 00:58:54,690
couldn't find an agent or publisher that

1276
00:59:00,109 --> 00:58:56,700
was interested well a lot of people

1277
00:59:02,450 --> 00:59:00,119
doing that in fact i was speaking to not

1278
00:59:03,830 --> 00:59:02,460
to give anything a high-profile skeptic

1279
00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:03,840
here over the weekend who said that

1280
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:05,310
they're just going to publish their own

1281
00:59:09,710 --> 00:59:07,650
book with it because they can't get a

1282
00:59:11,930 --> 00:59:09,720
publisher injustice a great all power

1283
00:59:15,380 --> 00:59:11,940
than until you know if you're going to

1284
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:15,390
go go down that way and feel the your

1285
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:18,450
acupuncture I can't get that out of my

1286
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:21,450
head I can't get the needles out of my

1287
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:24,690
ears but how are you light to see you

1288
00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:26,970
once again and I hope we can see each

1289
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:29,160
other again at another convention in

1290
00:59:50,140 --> 00:59:30,930
some other part of the world I'm sure we

1291
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:52,640
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1292
00:59:57,290 --> 00:59:54,690
zone now very interesting very exciting

1293
00:59:59,900 --> 00:59:57,300
we have a little competition and you can

1294
01:00:03,559 --> 00:59:59,910
win the series the witch doctor will see

1295
01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:03,569
you now as we discussed earlier in the

1296
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:07,380
show the interview with Pierce given the

1297
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:08,970
witch doctor will see you now it's a

1298
01:00:17,210 --> 01:00:13,290
four DVD set and it can be yours if you

1299
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:17,220
want all you have to do is use the

1300
01:00:25,670 --> 01:00:21,569
hashtag which dr. DVD so that's hashtag

1301
01:00:29,620 --> 01:00:25,680
which dr. DVD on Twitter and come up

1302
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:29,630
with your very own alternative medicine

1303
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:32,970
the best one will win the DVD set and

1304
01:00:35,690 --> 01:00:34,650
I'll be contacting them so there's the

1305
01:00:38,089 --> 01:00:35,700
challenge come up with your own

1306
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:38,099
alternative medicine in the space

1307
01:00:43,819 --> 01:00:41,250
available to you on twitter name for it

1308
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:43,829
and a brief explanation how does it work

1309
01:00:48,109 --> 01:00:46,710
what does it do that's a challenge boy

1310
01:00:52,430 --> 01:00:48,119
all in Twitter I might even have a go

1311
01:00:54,740 --> 01:00:52,440
myself hashtag which dr. DVD the winner

1312
01:00:57,500 --> 01:00:54,750
will be announced next week and I will

1313
01:01:00,530 --> 01:00:57,510
send the series off to that winner no

1314
01:01:02,420 --> 01:01:00,540
matter where you are in the world okay

1315
01:01:04,670 --> 01:01:02,430
that's enough for me I'm still

1316
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:04,680
jet-lagged but what the hell it doesn't

1317
01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:06,960
matter coming back this way around the

1318
01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:08,510
world I woke up very early and go to bed

1319
01:01:14,599 --> 01:01:12,150
very early which is better than staying

1320
01:01:18,770 --> 01:01:14,609
up all night wishing that you could fall

1321
01:01:22,730 --> 01:01:18,780
asleep when you can't whoever can invent

1322
01:01:27,230 --> 01:01:22,740
a cure for jet lag will make a million

1323
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:27,240
dollars from me alone so I'll get my

1324
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:29,730
head together for next week's show but

1325
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:31,890
for this week this is Richard Saunders

1326
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:40,710
you've been listening to the skeptic

1327
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:45,730
zone visit our website at www skeptics